Friday, April 17, 2009

the third way post collapse

THE THIRD WAY POST COLLAPSE
Everyone wants to be a farmer after the collapse. First off, most of us are familiar with gardening. There is no mystery, even if there is some mastery to go. We can practice ahead of time. Secondly, I think it holds a great appeal in that it has deep, primal meaning. You are filling your days trying to fill your belly. This is no abstract job or career, looking back at middle age wondering if you've done something with your life. You are directly providing for your family with no middleman. Alas, even though I have been trying to point out that farming isn't some fantasy where everything turns out all ducky, that it is full of danger and pitfalls, everyone is still looking at me like I'm a flaming idiot. How could he not want to be a farmer? How dare he point out that a local strongman will prey on you since you are immobile! Wanting to be a nomad/herder is so impractical! You're going to die! It's nice that you care enough about me that you are worried. Look, I've pointed out the good and bad points of both farmer and a nomad existence before. One is easy to prepare for but presents problems later, the other is hard to convert to but makes things easier in the long run. Neither is perfect, except for you specifically.
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Now, how about the third way that doesn't get a lot of press? We rarely talk about it, mainly since it is so unrealistic with our population levels. Hunter/gatherer. I'm not talking about something new here, the Stone Age guys have had a handle on this for years. Would it be once again be feasible after the die off? We are talking about a huge die off, by the way. As in Mayan civilization die off rather than Black Plague die off. Despite how panicked I've been about Peak Oil, and despite how massive I think the population decrease will be ( although to be fair my thinking is always colored by extreme paranoia ), will it be enough to allow a true hunter/gatherer existence to once again flourish? Somehow, I have my doubts. Look, since the Agricultural Revolution has there been anything other than the steady encroachment of land from farmers? Even after the fall of Rome. Entire areas went fallow after overproduction, but did anyone live in those areas other than hunter/farmers? Small scale farming ( since the soil now supported far less ) subsidised by hunting. You needed both since the area still wasn't depopulated enough. Outside of the plains Indians with their buffalo, you mostly had farmer/gatherers, farmer/hunters. I'm sure even the wild orchards were domesticated over time, as in almonds/walnuts. Yes, a bit rusty on tribal food logistics. But I think it's safe to say that even if there were a few exceptions, once farming was introduced it crowded out pure foraging.
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So if the predominate mode of food production, even with the Indians before Whitey showed up, was farming, how can we ever think we'll go back to a pure hunting and gathering existence? At best we can emulate the Indians and adopt the best features of both farming and wild livestock. Raising livestock depends on lots of fertile land for growing fodder. In effect, it is surplus land left over from feeding humans. Nomads are able to utilize waste land to feed livestock. Hunter/gathers are so disbursed that nature can feed them both wild meat and plants at a replenishment level. The Indians had the middle ground. Fertile farms surrounded by enough wilderness for game. Could that happen again after die off? It would somewhat alleviate the negative aspects of farming, the vulnerability of staying in one spot. With enough of a buffer between neighbors, attacks could be forewarned against by your mobile hunters. And it would provide another means of food besides just meat ( nomads must contact the farmers for trade, becoming somewhat vulnerable ).
*
I can't say for sure we'll devolve back into Dancing With Wolves. The past is a fuzzy Xerox copy of the future, not a crisp digital copy. Perhaps in some areas such as the Rockies you might see a true hunting/gatherer lifestyle. Perhaps the Great Basin might have the few fertile valleys farmed with the mountains surrounding them providing game. Perhaps the swamps down South will keep a few tribes of primitives alive off the land. I still think the symbiosis of outer protection from nomads surrounding a friendly farming community holds a lot of promise, but I'm also sure there will be some areas that support other types of survival.
END

26 comments:

Pamplemousse said...

If living as a hunter/gatherer is of interest, you might really enjoy "Into The Forest" by Jean Hegland. Fiction. I can't recommend it highly enough, an excellent story about one family's transition from modern civilization to ...

(Of course you would purchase this book through the buymycrap link to amazon.com books.)

SurvivalTopics.com said...

I think the big problem will be - should you do well with your little garden or hunter gatherer existence, there will be so many others without your skills their only option will be...to plunder you.

Anonymous said...

I think it depends on how big the die-off really becomes. Detroit was once a city of 2,000,000 people. Now it has 900,000 people. Large areas of the city are reverting to the wild. One Detroit citizen hunts racoons for eating right there in the city limits. The Chernobyl area is now taken over by the wild as well as some protected radioative areas in the States. Within 10-20 years, without people, much of the world will be wilderness again. Buildings of all sorts, without maintenance, will deteriorate very quickly. Roads will break up. Non-human animals will quickly populate the world: wolves, deer, rabbits, birds, etc. See the National Geographics "Life without People" DVD made for TV program.

Anonymous said...

Whoops,
I Mean "Life after People' by National Geographics.

Anonymous said...

Why can't there be a Hybred of the Farmer and Hunter/Gatherer? Farming is intense work in three stages, Planting, cultivating and harvest. While the three are hard labor intense they do not take all your time. You hunt in the early morning for a couple of hours and then farm until late afternoon and hunt or fish again. If you have a couple of other people with you they can rotate chores. And you can fight off the barbarions in your spare time ,,,

Wealth cannot be created, It can only be produced.

John Galt.

Anonymous said...

I think for quite a few people who do not have gardening or hunting skills now, they are going to be in 'plunder' mode. They can't afford to wait for food to grow and will go hungry long before they get enough for them and their families. Scavengers in other words.

Keeping animals and crops safe in that scenario will be a major occupation. It isn't yours unless you can keep it.

Sucks but I think that will be the case.

Anonymous said...

I agree with 2:38, it would be best to be a hybrid between the two. if you have land you could garden, but if you have to leave your home you would still know how to feed yourself.

Anonymous said...

hum! i read that there are a lot of people being fined for fishing w/o a permit... so it wouldn't be all that surprising that the fish and game get cleaned out soon if not already.

read BUTTERFLIES IN MY STOMACH. in the worse case you can let your corn turn wevilly and eat the meal worms.

i actually did that to some grain and it tasted fine. which makes me wonder how many bugs and worms really are cooked into the ho hos.

Anonymous said...

For most, its only a matter of time until their stocked food runs out and they discover they don't know how to farm.

Might be better to just go to the plunder option first. There will be many lush easy targets in the beginning. After your stockpile runs out, you will find that both the competition and the prey have hardened up considerably.

Anonymous said...

How many people will survive a die off? Will there really be a "Huge Die Off"? Are we going to revert back to a 19th century existence or are we going back to the stone age? Fast crash or a slow slide?

Nobody can predict the future.None of the survival experts have went through a total collapse before. They are guessing.

A hunter/gatherer existence may be the only way to survive right after a collapse.Do what you have to do to get by. After a while that type of living would get old,IMO. If I stay in one place long enough I grow roots,that's just me.What do the elderly do ?
Mobility is for the young and healthy.

A tribe or group that farms and fights is the best option.Going it alone is just too difficult.What do you do if you get sick ? Die ?
Humans need humans,like it or not.

Start a garden ASAP.Start raising chickens and rabbits. Talk with friends about forming a group.None of this stuff is easy,life is hard.
Deal with it now. Just my shitty opinion.We're all going to die anyway,eventually. Hopefully we will die of old age.

Anonymous said...

This has become my favorite blog. A guy not totally poisoned by his own economic interest. An "unadulterated" opinion. Rare in these times. Thanks James.
Now for my dissenting opinion: TEOTWAWKI is not likely to be merely an economic collapse situation. When you are the world's premier economic power, you can get away with "Banana Republic" tricks of the trade such as monetization (let's just print more money!).
What our biggest threat is,and what will ultimately bring about TEOTWAWKI, will be the ragheads (those great Muslim contributors to the progress of mankind) nuking all of the US. I can't understand why this is not discussed more. Everybody can forget what they have been told previously about a nuke aftermath. The Government info is based on Soviet preemptive/retaliatory strikes on nuclear silo and other "strategic" sites that our fearless leaders think is "obvious". F**k all that info. The ragheads will not waste a warhead on a North Dakota ICBM site. They will likely hit only our 200 biggest metro areas and some large military installations.

Finally, to my point: Will there be anything left to hunt, for the hunter/gatherer? Most of you (except for the poor, like me and Jim), will emerge after a few days in your radiation proof underground shelter (because you are rich and buy everything at Rawles). But, is anybody thinking of an alternate TEOTWAWKI? There may be no animals left. Could you deal with that??? TEOTWAWKI will be different/more difficult than what you have planned.

Thanks for the site Jim/James:>)

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:38 PM

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. Anything is possible.I'm surprised that America hasn't seen some type of chemical or nuclear attack.I'm sure TEOTWAWKI will be far worse than we can imagine.

You could always store heirloom seeds in your bunker. Sprouts are also pretty good,I do that weekly.I'm even considering ,don't laugh, guinea pigs as a food source. I'll do whatever it takes to survive. Good luck.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:54 PM

Google "Food Defect Action Levels"

YUM YUM !!!

Anonymous said...

In the event that it comes down to hunter/gather/farmer, that is why we have decided to hunker down here. A 1/4 garden is now sprouting, canning stuff is awaiting and I have scoped out the deer population and their habits. Plus there is an overabundance of quail and wild turkey, the kind you eat, not drink, on the property as well. We have maybe 6 to 8 of us that live close by( we are all on acerage, and talents overlap one another. Also the youngest that knows anything is 50. BUT we are all fit, have guns and know how to use them, somewhat off the main traffic pattern even though this is Kalyforniay. For us, it works instead of bugging out to junk land somewhere. So to stay on topic, we are and will be able to be all 3 of those things. My only concern is getting the young folks well trained in firarm use for both security and hunting. Their attention span is about as long as....!
Lynn www.westcoasttools.net

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:38
I think a very likely scenario to occur will be when Iran sends a satellite into orbit but in reality be a nuke. Once it gets over Nebraska lite that firecracker. The EMP pulse will send us back to the 19th century. Everything with a microprocessor in it will fry itself dead. Your car, cell phone, computer, ATM, cash register at WalMart, etc. will no longer function. Shoot, the doors to get into WalMart won't open. But I guess you could break thru the glass to get in to empty the food shelves. Their refrigeration will no longer function so they may as well give away the frozen goods. Imagine a few days without refrigeration and WalMart Supercenters will start to get rank.

One thing about being a hunter is how long will the game last? I am concerned that there will be a lot of hunters going to the woods and harvesting what is out there. Once that is gone, you go for what is left. Gee, how many Robins or Starlings does it take to fill a pot? Once those are gone, then what? Then what...try an insect invasion since all of the birds are gone. The insect invasion would then eat up all of your gardens. Are we living in the last days or what?

Anonymous said...

5;16

No food?

Look around, you are surrounded by protein!

Anonymous said...

I think you guys are underestimating tptb. Here in Pennsylvania the game commission has been on an aggressive deer reduction program for several years. Most hunters are finding it extremely difficult to find game at all. My father in law was out for 6 weeks in all the places he's successfully hunted for the last 40 years and saw nothing close to being legal.

We used to have a lot of pheasants in the state. Now they are gone. Squirrels, rabbits have been hunted hard.

So I think tptb will be intentionally reducing game to control the food source and people will quickly kill everything remaining they can.

I don't see either the farming way (you'll be overun by theives) or the hunter/gatherer way (no game to hunt, everything picked clean) working.

As I've said before, my strategy is to die off.

Dutch

Anonymous said...

Let's all go to Jim's trailer when TSHTF.

Anonymous said...

3:38 PM believes "When you are the world's premier economic power, you can get away with "Banana Republic" tricks..."

hurrah! for (OBB) obammy and the butt boys !!! we're SAVED !!!!


"will be the ragheads (those great Muslim contributors to the progress of mankind) nuking all of the US."

"Iran sends a satellite into orbit but in reality be a nuke."

well, i guess that what we're going to get for electing a nigga as a president, and being liberal jew-loving homosexuals.....

don't get it ? how can the so so superior USA get anihilated by a bunch of camel molesters?

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:54
Veni, Vidi, Vici!
But not you.

Cygnus MacLlyr said...

Combo, Bison. I'll be ready to fish, gather, plant, hunt...
OH, WAIT.
Not ready..
ALREADY! [Do, that is...]

Small local pockets, well-militia'd, will trade/barter with nomads.

Proto-typical trader, me. Weft, Weave, Dodge, Parry, Thrust...

Anonymous said...

James: The FDIC Closed your Bank Yesterday!!!!!!


Old Fart

Celt said...

While I do a few wildcrafting components in my agrarian pursuits, we must realize that the hunter-gatherer approach is a failed economy of minor scale.

Knowledge of nature and the way the natural world works is extremely important, but towards the ideas on longevity of a family unit the hunter gatherer is very much a failure in approach and should be treated as a 'last-ditch' effort at survival. I have a post of this approach here:

http://wildcraft.gaelicmysts.com/2008/08/19/curse-the-hunter-gatherer/

M.D. Creekmore said...

It is a big mistake to rely on only one source of anything now or after tshtf. There is nothing wrong with being a gardener or herder, just don't make it your only source of food.

You will need to use all the resources available. Food storage, garden, hunting / trapping, wild plants, domestic animals etc. It is stupid to depend on any one source, to many things can happen to disrupt that source.

I don't think being a nomad/herder is any more secure than raising a garden. A lot of things can happen to your herd,sickness and death, predators etc. To have any chance at all we will need to use a combination of skills and strategies.

Anonymous said...

Aw fuck ! I give up. I'm just gonna buy some Ho Hos and Wild Turkey.

theotherryan said...

Hunter Gatherers could make it in a few empty places.